Curse

Shursh · Aug 14, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eskimoz

No.

Explain.

With socialized healthcare, people are going to get crappy (and possibly unnecessary) healthcare options [read: blueberry yogurt], and everyone is going to have to pay more into the system to cover a few people's needs [read: 75 cents for some nasty yogurt that only one person in the class likes].

Here's the scenario we are in currently:

"Jane's strawberry sprinkle yogurt tastes the best to everyone, but costs $2.00/ea. Most people just bring vanilla with them for 50 cents each, except for a few people whose parents forgot to pack them their snack. These unfortunate few, rather than starve, gang up and steal Jane's strawberry sprinkle yogurt. The teacher says it's ok, though, because Jane's parents are rich."

Both are bad situations to be sure.

Eskimoz · Aug 14, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I didn't really understand that....but now I'm hungry.

**cosyfiep** · Aug 14, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

what needs to be is a plan where everyone can afford at least the basic health care....so that those of us in the middle who are paying for a large part of the current system CAN get medical attention WITHOUT having to declare bankruptcy to do it!
Right now many middle americans simply cant afford to see a doctor (see Kiya and Inde's posts) the poor can---welfare covers them, the rich can--they have the money. For those stuck in the middle the choice between having dinner for you and your kids outweighs having that stabbing pain in your back looked at! (its probably kidney stones).

Had this problem earlier this year---doctor sent me for THOUSANDS of dollars of tests (all of which came back negative), still insistent that my gallbladder was to blame (see negative tests above) she wanted to have yet even MORE expensive tests run....well, my 'insurance' doesnt kick in until I have met my deductible (which is sooo high, wont happen) so all they do is look at the charges and say : "we will not pay these, but some of the costs are above the routine and customary charges for these services...so we are discounting what you (the insured) have to pay....and oh yeah...the amount after the discount is what we are applying to your deductible).

So I have given up....probably wont figure out what the problem is until my autopsy! (if even then). I am now quite in debt and no closer to finding out what the problem is than when I started!

Something needs to be changed....not saying that the proposed option is the best one, but it has started the ball rolling.....and something had to do that!

Ditto · Aug 14, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Not at the expense of me, no, they don't deserve it.

...

It's this kind of attitude that shows how the selfish mindset in this country is really what needs reformed before the government is going to be able to make any changes. OK so you hate impoverished people that live off of welfare and have weak work ethic. What about the rest of us then? I'm a nursing student putting myself through college and I can't afford health insurance. What about working class citizens that can barely afford their premiums, and retired citizens that can't even buy their prescriptions? Let alone millions of people that DO work but do not have health insurance. Screw the rest of us, right? Just as long as you're fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleta

I don't want Socialism in any form and being older I don't want to be told when I need to die tyvm. And no I don't owe anybody a living.

No one is telling you when to die...stop watching Fox News and de-friend Sarah Palin on your Facebook account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

^ fixed that for you.

Fix? How about you grow up and not alter other people's words to say what you'd like them to say? If you'd like to make a point, say it yourself, but don't twist my words around to agree with yours.

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 14, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

what needs to be is a plan where everyone can afford at least the basic health care....so that those of us in the middle who are paying for a large part of the current system CAN get medical attention WITHOUT having to declare bankruptcy to do it!
Right now many middle americans simply cant afford to see a doctor (see Kiya and Inde's posts) the poor can---welfare covers them, the rich can--they have the money. For those stuck in the middle the choice between having dinner for you and your kids outweighs having that stabbing pain in your back looked at! (its probably kidney stones).

Had this problem earlier this year---doctor sent me for THOUSANDS of dollars of tests (all of which came back negative), still insistent that my gallbladder was to blame (see negative tests above) she wanted to have yet even MORE expensive tests run....well, my 'insurance' doesnt kick in until I have met my deductible (which is sooo high, wont happen) so all they do is look at the charges and say : "we will not pay these, but some of the costs are above the routine and customary charges for these services...so we are discounting what you (the insured) have to pay....and oh yeah...the amount after the discount is what we are applying to your deductible).

So I have given up....probably wont figure out what the problem is until my autopsy! (if even then). I am now quite in debt and no closer to finding out what the problem is than when I started!

Something needs to be changed....not saying that the proposed option is the best one, but it has started the ball rolling.....and something had to do that!

Your situation is typical of the system as it works now. Doctors order all kind of tests so as not to be accused of misdiagnosis and malpractice. The cost of all the unnecessary testing is then passed on to for all to cover.

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Snow Bunny, I've put in as much effort as you. Yeah I've been screwed by life and it sucks. But I PAY INTO a system that can't help me, that won't help me because.... I PAY INTO IT. Irony. If I'm going to pay, I'd at least like it to help everyone.

Sure, if I have to pay, let it help someone.

I just am truly infuriated that people (like you and me Inde, if you've put in the work for grad school/college/whatever) are getting penalized for striving for more in this life.

My girlfriend and I, who are figuring out the schematics for pooling savings/incomes, and such, realized this morning that we would save money if i declined the raise I'm supposed to receive. We're just on the border (together) of the above mark, literally swinging on about a $2000 borderline.

It's pathetic that if I take the raise, I'll end out losing money.

Also, for any of you that would find this funny, the Chinese government informally informed Obama's administration that it would not increase lending to the United States if the US pursued the health care reform, which shows how much faith they have in our abilities.

Shursh · Aug 14, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ditto

No one is telling you when to die...stop watching Fox News and de-friend Sarah Palin on your Facebook account.

Fix? How about you grow up and not alter other people's words to say what you'd like them to say? If you'd like to make a point, say it yourself, but don't twist my words around to agree with yours.

I'm just trying to show you what socialized healthcare would actually be like. Subsitituting some of your words revealed a striking similarity to the "selfish" mindset you seem to be so against, and I thought I would share that with you.

I think we can agree that Sarah Palin is a joke, but she as well as Fox News do have a point about "death panels" as there are several clauses in the bill which call for government rights to discontinue healthcare if you have dementia and other diseases. Does that sound fair to you?

KiyaKoreena · Aug 14, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Partly because of the current system Ive signed in my living will to refuse certain treatments because of the cost it would saddle on to my family, especially if there is no cure or hope in fully recovering. Seems right to me. There is always a point that no amount of treatment will help so shouldn't the one footing the bill draw their line in the sand? And in those cases are the families prevented from paying out of pocket to keep care going?

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 14, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

I'm just trying to show you what socialized healthcare would actually be like. Subsitituting some of your words revealed a striking similarity to the "selfish" mindset you seem to be so against, and I thought I would share that with you.

I think we can agree that Sarah Palin is a joke, but she as well as Fox News do have a point about "death panels" as there are several clauses in the bill which call for government rights to discontinue healthcare if you have dementia and other diseases. Does that sound fair to you?

All the so called death panels are is to discuss what steps you can take such as appointing someone who can make decisions if you can become unable to, etc. Things that people should discuss so as to let caregivers know what you want Not what what Beck, Limbaugh and Palin would jave you believe.

Ditto · Aug 14, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

..there are several clauses in the bill which call for government rights to discontinue healthcare if you have dementia and other diseases. Does that sound fair to you?

Can you prove this?

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 14, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ditto

Can you prove this?

No he can't.

Ditto · Aug 14, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

No he can't.

Shh...let's let him try.

Shursh · Aug 14, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

for starters:

http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_he...ealthcare.html

but honestly, we can google back and forth all day about what's really in the bill - post a direct link to the bill in its actual form if you can find it.

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 14, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

for starters:

http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_he...ealthcare.html

but honestly, we can google back and forth all day about what's really in the bill - post a direct link to the bill in its actual form if you can find it.

If you promise to read all of it, I will try and find the latest revision for you.

Shursh · Aug 14, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

I'd rather my elected officials read it first and then not lie to me about what's in it.

In the end, with a democratic house majority, this crappy bill is probably going to be rammed down America's throat whether we want it or not.

Sad times, indeed.

Ditto · Aug 14, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

for starters:

http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_he...ealthcare.html

No no no...I can't take you seriously if you post links to "articles" whose main source is an ally of agenda pushing right wing nutjobs like Ann Coulter and Grassfire.org.

Quote:

but honestly, we can google back and forth all day about what's really in the bill - post a direct link to the bill in its actual form if you can find it.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Have fun.

Winterclaw · Aug 14, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Black Metal, by fixing those programs I mean first and foremost make them financially stable so they don't bankrupt the country and in the VAs case get it to a point where it is good enough to serve as a model for an effective healthcare system that isn't burdened by bureaucracy and can get people the treatment they need. If we can't get it working on a limited system of socialized health we can't get it working on a universal system of socialized health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebe

I'm going to go out on a limb and say something potentially very controversial now. A publicly owned healthcare system benefits everyone, without prejudice. Those who are "against" public healthcare seem to be saying "I don't think some people deserve healthcare as much as me, because I can afford to pay for it". This attitude stinks of inequality, and can only further the divide between rich and poor.

If we have a socialized healthcare system, the poor will still get crappy healthcare while the rich and those in power will not. I mean I don't see anything in the healthcare bill that will require the president or anyone in congress to enroll themselves and their families in the same healthcare options they are giving the poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebe

Another fundamental problem are rich people. This "I worked for my money - why should I have to pay for someone else's healthcare" attitude is not healthy.

It is extremely healthy because the alternative is slavery. There are 3 fundamental rights everyone has life, liberty, and property. If you take away someone else money you are denying their liberty, you are taking their money, and you are keeping them from pursuing happiness as they define it. They broke their backs for their money, not you, so they should be the ones who have the final say where it goes.

That's what being free is all about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebe

I noticed a comment about Gun Ownership on the previous page. Seriously? Your "Bill of Rights" doesn't say you're entitled to healthcare, but are entitled to carry a gun? I am stunned, but can't say I'm surprised. Is it so that you can kill all the poorly people faster? Is that why they don't have a right to healthcare? All seems very ironic.

We have a right to protect ourselves and our family. You know, life, liberty, and property. In order to have a right you must have the means in order to defend it. You see when the US was putting our constitution in place, they remembered this little thing called the revolutionary war; the one where their government was the bad guys and they had to break free. Back then guns were also important tools for hunting as well as self defense from criminals.

Our government was founded on the principle that every individual has a right to do pretty much whatever he pleases with his own life and his own belongings. If he wants to help the needy there was this novel idea of something called charity and helping others... things he didn't need the government for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinki

Risky, name for me the US government programs that has ever reeled in runaway costs and waste. Social Security? Medicare? Medicaid? Cash for Clunkers? They could not even track the 1 Billion dollars for C4C. What government projects have you seen that have consistentely come in under costs. When has the Govt not been riddled with waste, fraud and abuse? Why do you have such confidence that the Govt can accomplish this? You complain about the HMO's do you know who created them?

The US Government did when they passed the Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973. Look it up. Everyone rails against HMO's but convientely forgets who gave us HMO's in the first place. Guess who regulates HMO's, That would be our wonderful federal and state govts. Now you want the same idiots to give us more Health Care? No thank you. What have EITHER party ever done to fix Medicare/Aid, HMO's, SSA? Sorry but I have a huge no confidence vote for this stuff. The Govt is good for some things like defense, public works and things along those lines, but they really suck at these large programs.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebe

Didn't members of previous American Governments take hundreds of thousands of dollars of bribes from HMOs to ensure the lovely corrupt system remains exactly as it is? Every documentary I've seen suggests this.

So you want a government proven to be susceptible to bribes to run everyone's health care. Or this government in which no one in the house ethics committee would do a probe of William Jefferson because he was in their democratic party, the same William Jefferson who was found to have $90k in bribe money hidden in his freezer and was just convicted for that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by inde

The system is broke. The poor get free healthcare. I work and pay thousands for healthcare and qualify for no government program. I was told by the hospital that if I wanted help in covering my bills I had 2 choices (and this has been repeated so many times now by other families I know) divorce or quit my job. Yes, those are your options so that you can lower your income to qualify for a government program.

Inde, I understand where you are coming from. I'll have a little more to say about the broken system later, but I think you revealed something important. The government, the one who would be in charge of your and everyone else health care, set up their current system so you would have to get divorced or quit your job to qualify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

Had this problem earlier this year---doctor sent me for THOUSANDS of dollars of tests (all of which came back negative), still insistent that my gallbladder was to blame (see negative tests above) she wanted to have yet even MORE expensive tests run....well, my 'insurance' doesnt kick in until I have met my deductible (which is sooo high, wont happen) so all they do is look at the charges and say : "we will not pay these, but some of the costs are above the routine and customary charges for these services...so we are discounting what you (the insured) have to pay....and oh yeah...the amount after the discount is what we are applying to your deductible).

So I have given up....probably wont figure out what the problem is until my autopsy! (if even then). I am now quite in debt and no closer to finding out what the problem is than when I started!

cosy, I've got a sister who's been in the hospital several times with a condition they can't figure out. She's been given a pace maker. She's been put on blood pressure medicine. All I know is they never figured out what was wrong with her and she's gone off the deep end. I know another guy who was having problems, the doctor thought it was the gull bladder and had it removed. The guy didn't get any better. So I know exactly where you are coming from.

However, one theory for part of the problem is that if a doctor screws up he gets sued. If he misses something he can be sued. If he thinks it is one thing and it isn't, he can be sued. The largest bill your doctor has to pay is his malpractice insurance bill.

So what does he do? In order to keep his own insurance costs down and keep his butt out of court he orders a ton of tests. Tests that you had to foot the bill on. But he has to do it to save his own skin. So you have to pay expensive bills and high deductibles in part because the doctor has to pay for malpractice insurance and orders tests on everything for legal reasons.

I really wouldn't be surprised if the malpractice insurance people are often owned by the medical insurance people.

I'm not saying the system isn't broken. I'm not saying people shouldn't get healthcare. But I am saying it shouldn't be done by the federal government. Health care is something that is important to a lot of people. I know that. However it is too important to be left in the hands of such a small number of people in Washington. Be they congressmen or the president who give into special interests or some career bureaucrat who never has to face the voters and is trying to keep the costs down.

Here's what I think. People have a right to their own money and what they earn. It doesn't matter if it is only two dollars or two billion dollars, they worked hard for that money and they should be the ones who get to decide what happens to that money.

If a man doesn't want to his spend money on something that is important to you, that is his right and we shouldn't judge him for it. If he wants to be a generous benefactor, we should be thankful to him. Putting a gun to his head and making him fork over the money under the threat of imprisonment and anal rape is wrong.

Justice is blind. If another man is not directly responsible for your medical condition than he is innocent and should be treated as such. He shouldn't have to pay for something he didn't cause. His ample ability to pay is irrelevant. He didn't do the crime, he shouldn't do the time.

I think there is a larger issue at play. Look at the US constitution. Read specifically what it says. Those are the rules the federal government is required to play by. If the federal government isn't specifically told it can do something by the constitution than that act would be unconstitutional. The rule of law is important. The role of the federal government is to protect the people and make sure the constitution is followed in our land.

So by asking the federal government to do something it isn't permitted, you are asking it and giving it permission to break the highest laws of the end. Think of how dangerous that is or could be. You are telling the federal government the rules they have to abide by are irrelevant.

There's one thing that scares me. Once someone gets enrolled on a socialized healthcare system, he is dependent on it until he gets off of it. He is dependent on the federal government. That isn't good. The more you need big brother to do for you, the less freedom you have. The more you need the government, the more the government can coerce and control you.

Now if you do support socialized health care, at least do it in a way that is legal. Go through the states. Right now there are 9 states that have some form of socialized health care. They have the freedom to enact such legislation by the constitution. If one state screws up the system it won't hurt the entire nation.

Ditto · Aug 14, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

If we have a socialized healthcare system, the poor will still get crappy healthcare while the rich and those in power will not. I mean I don't see anything in the healthcare bill that will require the president or anyone in congress to enroll themselves and their families in the same healthcare options they are giving the poor.

If we're talking about the current health care bill, keep in mind it's a public OPTION. There is a grandfather clause for those who are already subscribed to a health insurance program.

This argument about getting “crappy healthcare” is preposterous. How can you know such a thing? It’s a scare tactic. This bill includes stuff like funding for prevention and wellness programs, promoting quality health care to reduce hospital readmission incidents (which are very costly), a grant program to get more people trained in the nursing field and cut down on the shortage.

Opponents want to argue that it’s their freedom to choose which doctor they want to go see…when really it isn’t. Health insurance companies have their own hierarchies of PPO DMO and all that other crap. Depending on how much you can pay for a premium, you get to decide from a list of doctors the insurance company provides you. And don’t even think about going to an out of network hospital or doctor…you might as well not have insurance at all for what that costs. And what about the uninsured portion of this country that don’t even have a choice at all?

Quote:

Here's what I think. People have a right to their own money and what they earn. It doesn't matter if it is only two dollars or two billion dollars, they worked hard for that money and they should be the ones who get to decide what happens to that money.

Of course they should get to decide. That’s why this is a democracy, everyone gets to have a say. But more importantly, this is a society. Of course we all work towards the betterment of ourselves, but the ultimate goal is to work together as a society for the betterment of the nation as a whole. This whole me myself and I attitude is so dangerous and inhumane.

Quote:

If a man doesn't want to his spend money on something that is important to you, that is his right and we shouldn't judge him for it. If he wants to be a generous benefactor, we should be thankful to him. Putting a gun to his head and making him fork over the money under the threat of imprisonment and anal rape is wrong.

Lol…this reeks of an argument for something like tax evasion. Maybe roads aren’t important to me, I still have to pay taxes so they can be built and maintained. Again, this is what being in a society is all about. Everyone puts in, and everyone should get back. Yes everyone’s voice should be heard, and compromises made. And YES it should be even and fair, not the disparities we have right now between the obscenely wealthy and the struggling working class.

Quote:

There's one thing that scares me. Once someone gets enrolled on a socialized healthcare system, he is dependent on it until he gets off of it. He is dependent on the federal government. That isn't good. The more you need big brother to do for you, the less freedom you have. The more you need the government, the more the government can coerce and control you.

Everyone on medicare is dependent on the federal government. AKA your Grandma and Grandpa…

There is nothing to be scared of. This fear mongering Big Brother crap is what stifles people and keeps them quiet…not the government. The government should be afraid of us, not the other way around. When informed and educated people stand against something in solidarity, they are very powerful. It’s fear of speaking out and ignorance that keeps people at bay.

Nodakim · Aug 14, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Brain washing is working nicely in the US I have to say.
As every day passes,less Americans remember they pay taxes.
Purely.
Awesome.

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ditto

That’s why this is a democracy, everyone gets to have a say. But more importantly, this is a society. Of course we all work towards the betterment of ourselves, but the ultimate goal is to work together as a society for the betterment of the nation as a whole. This whole me myself and I attitude is so dangerous and inhumane.

Everyone puts in, and everyone should get back. Yes everyone’s voice should be heard, and compromises made.

That's the point. Less people are putting in and more people are taking out. I'm putting in $8000 so that you can go get your surgeries, but you're not putting in anything for me because I make more than you do, because I suffered through college studying, and then suffered grad school, then grad school debt, then applying myself in higher employment.

I do not work towards the betterment of society. Most people are stupid, truth be told. Look at the financial crisis - indeed, many banks are to blame, but millions upon millions living outside their means, taking out mortgages when they had no business doing so. Immigrant families in Los Angeles buying their children Xbox 360s for christmas when they're getting paid under the table for doing their housekeeping/gardening work, paying for their groceries with gov't issued food stamps.

I share nothing with the beings I interact with through the day. 95% of the population at large can't see past a week. They live day-by-day, paycheck-to-paycheck.

The workers at the US auto-manufacturing plants? I do feel very sorry for them. Their job losses are not their faults and they truly have my sympathy. The family that can't afford satellite television and the $600,000 mortgage when their income is only $55,000 per annum? I have no sympathy, they will enjoy rotting in a cascade of financial failure because they thought they were entitled to something beyond their means.

If I'm paying 50% of my wages and you're paying 6%, why do we have the same vote? Why should I have to pay more? You're saying I'm greedy? Good god, imagine that I possibly deserve the money I earn working 12 hours a damn day.

What the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is wrong with you people?